How has legal education evolved over the past 15 years?

In many ways, legal education still has not changed very much. In the late 19th Century, Christopher Columbus Langdell established the case method. He envisioned using a scientific approach to law. Instead of studying bones or butterflies, law students would study cases. The courses today are still remarkably like the courses of a century ago. What has changed is that we now understand the importance of going beyond the study of cases. We do that in our clinical programs, and, increasingly, we do it in the classroom by giving students a problem-based approach to studying law. The goal is to educate lawyers who can resolve new issues, not just cite the past.

How has the legal profession changed since you became dean?

One of the major changes is the increased diversity of both the student body and the faculty. I went through law school at a time where there were only eight women in my class of 165. It was a bit strange and awkward both for the women and the men. I have loved being dean today when half the students at most law schools are women and gender issues are pretty much history.

Has anything about the practice of law surprised you?

We’re sending out classes into law firms that are about fifty-fifty, men to women. But if you look at partners in major firms, there’s still a tremendous gender gap. In terms of faculty, we’re further along than law firms. In terms of deans, we’ve still got a way to go.

What was it like for you when you became dean?

I remember going to my first meeting of law school deans. I felt as if I were in a time warp, returning to my first class in law school. There were almost no women or people of color in the room.
     It underscores why I am very grateful to Georgetown. They took big risks with me. First, they took a risk in 1972 to hire me. And I’m grateful to Father Timothy Healy, who appointed me dean in 1989. There were only a dozen other women deans at that point. It was another big risk. Fortunately there was already a group of strong women on the faculty — and we’re very different from one another. There isn’t just one way of being a woman law professor. That helped the faculty to decide that we can select the dean of the Law Center without making gender a factor.

You are certainly a role model for a lot of people.What has that been like?

I don’t know how to be a role model. I’m not even sure I know how to be a dean in the abstract. But when I was appointed as dean, I had already been on the faculty for 16 years. I had wonderful colleagues on the faculty, and I had a laundry list of things I hoped could be done differently. Throughout and less by design than by necessity, I’ve consulted broadly.

I also learned early on to listen not only to students but to our alumni, and they’ve been very helpful. When I started, they had a lot of complaints about things they hadn’t liked when they were here. If there’s been a theme to what we’ve tried to accomplish these 15 years, it has been to listen closely to our alumni. They told us that Georgetown was too large. Our response was to reduce the size of the entering class. They told us it was too impersonal and that there weren’t enough faculty members. Well, we’ve grown the faculty to become the largest law faculty in the country. They told us it was a commuter atmosphere. We became residential. The alumni have been very good guides, even their complaints –maybe especially their complaints.

Given that you came in with a list of things you wanted to change, what was your top priority?

When I started there was an atmosphere within the faculty of collegiality and support for the school. It was a very precious legacy passed down from Bob Pitofsky, David McCarthy, and Paul Dean. If a colleague is ill, for example, I know I can go to virtually anyone on the faculty and say, “Will you cover their classes?” It’s that kind of spirit. It makes this a place where people stay. My goal was to maintain that sense of community and to make sure that it was expanded to two other groups who didn’t always feel welcome — students and alumni. I’m thrilled to have been a part of bringing together a broader community.

It wouldn’t have been possible without the alumni, of course, from housing for the students to an international law building and now even a fitness center.

You say some things happen more by necessity than by design. How much of your guidance of the school was planned and how much was intuitive?

And how much was serendipity? I’d say there was a lot of that, too. When you look back, some things seem more planned than they were. For example, we can now look at a physical map and see the school covering three contiguous blocks. I’d like to say that was planned, but in truth we did what we could when we could. I’m as surprised as anyone else that we were finally able to acquire the last piece of land – it took us more than 10 years.
     More seriously, one of the reasons for the good relationship between faculty and deans can be attributed to Dave McCarthy, who set up a terrific planning process. Every five years we form a planning committee not just of faculty but with students and senior administrators and say to them, “Do your best to plan the next five years.” Perhaps it’s not so unusual to have long-range plans. What is unusual is that the Law Center has a tradition of achieving the major goals in those plans.

What are some of your favorite moments as dean?

It’s always nice when an alum stops me in an airport to say hello. They talk about how proud they are that they graduated from Georgetown, and they tell me something about what they’re doing now that has been made possible by their Georgetown education. It makes it real. I also especially like the lunch we do every spring and invite the alumni who have given scholarships and the student who is holding the scholarship that year so they have a chance to meet each other. We usually ask one of our graduates to speak and, often

it’s someone who received financial aid as a student. I like watching the current students as they listen, because they realize here is someone who needed financial aid to get through law school, and who has done well enough that they’re now in a position to give back a gift of $50,000 or more for a scholarship. It both encourages students as to what they will be able to accomplish but also, I hope, plants a seed so they’ll remember the tradition of giving. That’s what the future of the school turns on.

When you took over as dean, you helped to emphasize the Jesuit tradition of giving back.What in your own background led you to this?

A lot of it has to do with when I grew up. I was in college and law school in the 1960s, and there was a lot of engagement with the big issues of the time, civil rights and concern about the war in Vietnam. And I remember Robert F. Kennedy talking about people who see the world as it is and ask, “Why?” He encouraged us to dream of things that never were and ask, “Why not?” At Georgetown, I have been strengthened by the Jesuit tradition, particularly their concern for social justice and for the poor. That’s a powerful message to put together with the tools we’re giving these wonderfully bright students who come to the Law Center as we teach them how to use their training, whether it’s in the court system or in legislation or in advocacy in the community.

That’s one of the things that sets Georgetown apart from other law schools.

I think so. Our clinical program is one of the largest in the country and is considered the best. The very first person I hired at Georgetown, by the way, was Wally Mlyniec.  

I was an inexperienced new faculty member who was interested in doing something about issues concerning children, particularly child abuse. I had obtained some funding to set up a clinicand hired Wally. I will never again make as spectacular a hire. I’m very proud of the clinics but the credit belongs to him. Indeed, Wally has built both our clinical and our public interest programs.

How does it feel to be going back to teaching and writing?

     I’m excited. There’s great wisdom in the Georgetown tradition that after you serve as dean, you have the opportunity to return to the faculty. Father Phil Boroughs, the new Vice President at the University for Mission and Ministry, says there’s a similar Jesuit tradition.
     I became a legal academic in the first place because I wanted to teach and write. I still feel that way.

Do you get to spend your sabbatical year somewhere nice, like the south of France?

My husband, who’s a lawyer, has clients, and they don’t believe in long sabbaticals. We’re traveling a little, but only a little.

What advice would you give law students?

The first thing most law students say is how busy they are, and I deliberately say to them, “Actually, you’re going to be busier once you’re in practice”–not to discourage but to encourage them to think now about how they can manage their time. It’s fundamental. You need to devote enough time to your professional goals–but also to find balance. That means personal time, but I think it should also include time for others. Law school is the best time to find your balance. You want to keep your soul nurtured, not just your mind.